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vv's Photo vv 17 May 2018

Ne era "pana si tu", era "inclusiv Darwish crede asta", si partea aia a mesajului i se adresa intr-o mare masura lui Iulian :)

 

In rest, complet de acord, cred ca fix asta am zis si eu mai sus. Sau ma rog, asta a fost intentia mea - sa zic ca fara o strategie clara de a le arata "lumina de la capatul tunelului", singura optiune care le ramane Israelienilor, pragmatic vorbind, e genocidul/ "eliminarea totala a dusmanului". Ceea ce n-are cum sa aplaude niciunul dintre noi...  de-aia sunt criticati de fapt pe aici, nu fiindca se apara de agresori, ci fiindca nu par a-si deschide/cauta optiuni de a transforma agresorul in amic. Sigur ca poti zice ca "si palestinienii ar putea incerca asta", dar really, that's not how it works - e normal sa avem pretentii mai mari de la partea mai "deschisa la cap" din conflict. 

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Darwish's Photo Darwish 17 May 2018

Stiu vv... Mi se pare absolut logic ce zici si chiar asa este...

 

Apropo de ce zici, uite un punct de vedere si un fel de a privi lucrurile in oglinda: https://www.independ...k-a7784866.html

 

 

In 1967, my husband was a military man. We were posted abroad when the war was won and the fabric of the still-infant Israel changed, perhaps irreversibly. When we came home in 1968, the mood was victorious and we thought it was marvelous. We were truly blind to what was happening.

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I believe that while this occupation – the main source of Palestinian human-rights violations – continues, there will not be justice here for Israelis or Palestinians alike.

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Since I witnessed its beginnings half a century ago, the occupation has only got worse. The size and scale of settlements is something I can’t get over. I know every little road and every little village of the West Bank and it is frightening to see them swallowed up piece by piece by indistinguishable rows of red roofs that multiply across Palestinian land. It is robbery that is devoid of shame.

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For 50 years the occupation has weakened Israel from within. It should never have happened. It has brought such radical and negative change to the country I love that I wonder every day whether what we have become is a place that I want my grandchildren to grow up in. In my 90 years, I have lived all 50 of this occupation. I will keep trying to end it. I don’t know for how long, but I will.

 

 

Cu toti suntem superorterii unor cauze, ideea este ca atunci cand aceasta cauza te pune in fata unei alegeri de a renunta la umanitatea ta sau a renunta la o pozitie politica/religioasa/nationala/etc, ce faci?

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klf's Photo klf 18 May 2018

Am multe de spus dar din păcate nu am timp.
Am găsit un post care descrie exact ce gândesc eu și majoritatea persoanelor din jurul meu :

You would think that shooting in the fence is not our fault and still regretting dead children.

One can know that those who are guilty of unnecessary death are Hamas and those who finance it, and still understand why people prefer to rise up against Israel and not against Hamas.

It is understandable that the billions that are spilled in Gaza reach the inferno tunnels and the lathes and still feel sorry for the people who live there under goddam conditions.

You can know that in every army there are soldiers who have sadistic tendencies and still think that the IDF as an army is a moral army that tries to kill as few innocent people as possible.

One can not agree with the mastery and arrogance of the settler leaders, and still think that the Palestinians are a thousand times more guilty than any hilltop boy in their situation.

It is possible to feel sorry for the feeling of alienation of millions and at the same time to look at the movement of peoples in the 20th century with astonishment, millions upon millions who were displaced from one country and moved to another, and not understand why only the Palestinians are still considered refugees and why they have a special UN authority to deal with their situation.

One might think that terrorism and Iran are real dangers, and still think that a much greater danger is the loss of democratic values ​​in the country. The contempt for civil liberties, increasing nationalism, evangelism, messianism, fundamentalism, the attempt to remove checks and balances to reduce citizens' freedom and justice.

We can be happy about the transfer of the embassy to Jerusalem and be sad that whoever did it is a rude, racist and hating woman, that the damage he has done to women in the world, our daughters, our wives and our mothers is terrible, and hate him for it.

One can not think that life in Israel should be stopped because the Palestinians have decided to commit suicide on our border, and still to be disgusted by those who celebrate their death.

You can be a rational person in a crazy Israel, with complex positions and not choose all our positions automatically according to the note we put in the ballot box, the house we came from, or the sound box that surrounds us in the networks.
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Darwish's Photo Darwish 18 May 2018

Exact klf, exista si pe partea cealalta palestinieni care se afla in tabara opusa si care gandesc ce pacat au facut ei sau stramosii lor atunci cand au inceput sa accepte refugiatii/emigrantii evrei printre ei ca apoi sa ajunga sa-si piarda tara, casa, pamantul, stiulul de viata, traditiile, bisericile lor, moscheele lor, cei dragi, marea, totul? Aparent nu vom stii decat atunci cand se va trage cortina asupra acestui conflict iar cel invingator va scrie istoria, asa cum s-a intimplat mereu... 

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klf's Photo klf 18 May 2018

Părerea mea e ca acest conflict nu va inceta niciodată și nu vor fi învingători. Amândouă părți au pierdut deja,într-un fel sau altul. Sorry, azi sunt pesimist.
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vv's Photo vv 18 May 2018

Ma, eu unu' vad doar 2 optiuni de a incheia cat-de-cat satisfacator conflictul:

1. Israel & western allies (sau oricine, really, da' astia-s cei mai plauzibili) fac o politica de investit masiv in dezvoltarea zonelor palestiniene/ cresterea bunastarii celor de acolo. Neconditionat. Ca sa poti negocia cu ei rezonabil, tre' intai sa aiba ceva de pierdut.
2. Israel ocupa zonele palestiniene, si promulga un "Palestinian Protection Act" cam cum au facut japonezii cu populatia Ainu din insula Hokkaido - trecand astfel la asimilarea fortata/ stergerea elementelor culturale palestiniene din zona.
(eu unu' consider varianta 2 ca fiind mai acceptabila decat ce se intampla acum, da' tot ar fi un "backlash" masiv pe scena internationala, e o strategie extrem de riscanta si daca nu se tin de ea cu dintii si pe termen lung, o sa aiba o gramada de dezavantaje fara sa aduca nici un avantaj)
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Iulian's Photo Iulian 22 May 2018

articolul lui Rosenberg l-am citit si eu acum cateva zile si subscriu... 

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Darwish's Photo Darwish 08 Jun 2018

https://www.facebook.../?fref=mentions

 

Deci dupa ce IDF a impuscat un medic palestinian (Razan Najjar) in timp ce isi facea datoria, purtatorul de cuvant altereaza un interviu video cu ea incat sa il scoata din context si sa para ca fiind legitima impuscarea ei... IDF seamana din ce in ce mai mult cu o armata araba pusa pe repercusiuni si minciuni... uite asa se duce IDF de rapa...

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Liviu M's Photo Liviu M 08 Jun 2018

Sorry Darwish, da' vad ca n-ai luat nici un fel de pozitie in legatura cu zmeele incendiare...

Sigur, incendirea unor hectare de padure nu-i la fel de nasoala ca impuscatul unui doctor, recunosc, da' aiurea tot mi se pare. Mai ales ca presupun ca mai bate si dinspre Israel spre Gaza, caz in care o gura de aer proaspat mi se pare preferabil uneia de cenusa.

 

Adica da, Israelul e cel puternic si cu arme sofisticate, da' si palestinienii sunt inventivi si mandri de asta *). Si sansele sa se impace se micsoreaza cu fiecare actiune (de ambele parti).

 

*) I-am vazut intr-un reportaj cum se bucurau ca ei, cu zmee de 2 lei americani, produceau pagube de milioane.

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Darwish's Photo Darwish 08 Jun 2018

Daca imi ceri o parere personala toata treaba cu zmeele e o prostie fara margini... In primul rand pentru ca transforma o lupta justa intr-una in care ajungem o copie cinica, transformam o poveste frumoasa intr-un soi de joc de distrugere in masa... Poate ca inteleg motivarea unui taran sau fiul unui taran palestinian care a muncit un teren ca sa scoata niste legume si apoi ca IDF-ul sa-i lase legumele sa putrezeasca pe punctul de trecere atunci cand face in asa fel incat si capra vecinului sa moara dar nu aceasta este solutia... 

 

Azi inca 3 morti si alte sute de raniti... Intrebarea este cand va aparea un Rabin care sa gandeasca cu voce tare si sa zica raspicat ca nu poate transforma IDF-ul intr-o armata care urmareste zmee*.... Absurdul trebuie sa-si gaseasca un sfarsit si nivelul de absurd aici a atins cote inimaginabile...

 

* Asa cum a declarat Rabin in 1989 ca nu poate transforma IDF-ul intr-o gasca de soldati care e trimisa dupa copii care arunca cu pietre in ei....

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Michidush's Photo Michidush 08 Jun 2018

Acolo nu o sa fie niciodata pace. Pace va fi cand un fel de UE local va desfiinta granitele si  check pointurile, va acorda drept neingradit la munca si sanse egale.

Asta o sa se intample bineinteles in Valhalla unde lupul si mielul vor paste impreuna paziti de un copil. Mai degraba la urmatoare criza mondiala (economica, a petrolului, a resurselor etc) va urma un macel local de proportii biblice si sortii se vor intoarce pe rand de partea unora sau a altora. De fapt aici e cheia cu Iranul, Iranul e singura putere regionala care poate conta in caz de cluster fuck total. Are niste munti de 6000 de m care sa ii pazeasca frontierele si nici un inamic in coasta estica. Strategic e pozitionat beton.

Saudi va fi invadat de Egipt mai devreme sau mai tarziu, iar noua putere regionala s-ar putea sa faca pace cu Iranul. 

Israel mai devreme sau mai tarziu va da piept cu propriul destin....land locked intre dusmani si "imperiul roman" prea ocupat de problemele de acasa ca sa dea o mana de ajutor.

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Darwish's Photo Darwish 12 Jun 2018

https://www.reddit.c...in_the_middle/ 

 

Un pic de wishful thinking, dar merita totusi reflectat asupra acestui fapt...

 

 

Hundreds of thousands of Jordanians have thronged the streets of Amman and other cities of the Hashemite kingdom in heated demonstrations. As I write this, not a single Jordanian protester’s knee has been broken, either before being arrested or after, if there have been arrests at all. Not a single mayor has criticized demonstrators from outside his city on the pretext that they were inciting people to violence.

Hundreds of thousands of Jordanians have thronged the streets of Amman and other cities of the Hashemite kingdom in heated demonstrations. As I write this, not a single Jordanian protester’s knee has been broken, either before being arrested or after, if there have been arrests at all. Not a single mayor has criticized demonstrators from outside his city on the pretext that they were inciting people to violence.

Meanwhile, Jordan, which lacks natural resources, has taken in more than a million Syrian refugees, who were preceded by a similar number of Iraqis, and yet there has been no griping about Jordan losing its Jordanian identity. So if there is a light unto the nations, the Jordanians are that light. In Israel, the presence of just 35,000 refugees from East Africa unleashes every racist demon, and Israel has put many of the refugees in jail — at a distance from the eye and a distance from the heart.

In addition, according to King Abdullah, in the wake of the Arab Spring, Jordan has lost $4 billion after Egypt stopped supplying it with natural gas and as a result of the wars in Syria and Iraq, which have exhausted the Jordanian economy. Now the Saudis are trying to convince Jordan to agree to the Americans’ “deal of the century.” If this project comes to fruition, it will probably splinter the Hashemite kingdom. It would be similar to someone asking you, with the utmost kindness, to agree for you to be killed, adding that if you declined, the entire wrath of the world would come down on you. According to media reports, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman insulted Abdullah during the Jordanian monarch’s most recent visit to Saudi Arabia for daring to oppose the transfer of the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Jordan had been due to receive $5 billion over five years from the Saudis and Gulf states, the media reported, but a halt was put to all that on orders from above.

Meanwhile, the World Bank, which is acting like a black-market bully, wants its money now. As King Abdullah has hinted, he has been told that things will get moving again only if he supports the transfer of the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. In Jordan, the lines are getting longer. This time the government’s decisions are harming the middle class, but when people take to the streets, a bell goes off in the minds of the demonstrators and the government warning them not to breach the point of no return. That means not letting events resemble those of the Arab Spring, which destroyed countries and brought tragedy in its wake. In a talk with the Jordanian media, Abdullah didn’t even try to hint, as other Arab leaders would, that a plot from outside the country was targeting him. The king pinned all the blame on the Jordanian government, corruption and inaction by cabinet ministers. (Whereas in Israel, if ministers were less active, the world would be a better place.) In addition, Abdullah said Jordan needs to strengthen the party system as the only way to buttress political stability.

So here we have the Arabs, contrary to the claim by the philosopher Hegel, learning from history.

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